thanks neo guess I need to do some more research. as I said vbseo left a really bad taste and was a total nightmare for me for many years and finally got where enough was enough. besides it happening each vacation each time of course you had to update your contract to get the updates to protect your site. I have been reading about dragonbyte and they actually wanted me to reinstall vbseo and then they work off that. trust factor is not their. I actually believe a lot of the exploits with vbseo were initiated by them to get people to renew, not positive on this but I always wondered, I have never been hit with any of the vbulletin exploits and got every single one of the vbseo exploits just before they announced them