Climate change anyone?

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The Lounge What is on Your Mind? Climate change anyone?
# 29  
Old 05-23-2019
Regarding Kalkar:
it was a fast breeder - the few existing ones did not breed as promised, and during operation showed that managing the risks (much higher than the other non-breeding types) was 1. more expensive than estimated and 2. led to too many unplanned downtimes. None of them made profit.
Kalkar was designed with some new techniques, but during construction more and more indications showed up that it would not become profitable.
The people protest certainly caused an earlier withdrawel - the nuclear industry leaders were thinking of another round of redesign/reconstruction.
# 30  
Old 05-23-2019
Hi stomp...
(Apologies for any typos.)

Yes, it is bad. But is it really that bad?
YES! It IS really that bad.
The general consensus is like my post #4. We have hit the knee of the diode and the change is now entering true exponential phase.
This is not just for global warming and climate change but greenhouse gases increase and sea level rise to name but two more.
Ocean ecosystems are failing, (corals as an example), due to the absorption of this heat and carbonic acid created from excess CO2.
The danger is not just sea level rise due to melting ice caps but expansion in the volume of the oceans even with just 1 to 2 degrees C average increase over the globe.
Increased ocean temperature will significantly increase water vapour in the atmosphere adding to the greenhouse effect AND creating massive flooding worldwide; this will be on a scale like nothing we have ever seen before. This has already started!
Then there is lack of oxygen for the animal kingdom as huge swathes of forests are destroyed worldwide and more humans use the oxygen content in the atmosphere.
Man made discarded waste into the oceans and landfill will cause untold problems; landfill WILL eventually release large quantities of the greenhouse gas methane and related chemical cousins.
I could go on but I think I have said enough on the subject...

# 31  
Old 05-24-2019
Originally Posted by wisecracker
YES! It IS really that bad.
Hi Barry!

You misunderstood me here. Of course we're dead meat, once we hit 3°C rise - or maybe earlier. But we're not at this point so far. At the moment the chance is there to turn the tide. Some effects can not be reversed but the chances already for a living are there. What I meant with "Is it that bad?" is: Is the game already over? And this is not the case for me.


About that video-thing: A professional Youtuber and his crew made a video on saturday of about 1 hour length. Called "The destruction of the cdu"(cdu = ruling party in germany). 7.000.000 views so far. It really pulls all younger people in and gives a lot of trouble to the party.
# 32  
Old 05-24-2019
Originally Posted by wisecracker


Then there is lack of oxygen for the animal kingdom as huge swathes of forests are destroyed worldwide and more humans use the oxygen content in the atmosphere.
Man made discarded waste into the oceans and landfill will cause untold problems; landfill WILL eventually release large quantities of the greenhouse gas methane and related chemical cousins.
I could go on but I think I have said enough on the subject...

Yes, you are right.

I admire Stomp for his passion, but he seems to ignore the history of the planet, the realities of global politics and the true socio-economic conditions of the WORLD at large.

Stomp, world is a lot bigger than Germany and your German friends (and I am sure they are great people, no doubt); but living in "the German bubble" and viewing the fate
of the planet from "the German perspective" is not realistic, on a global scale.

(Actually, you could substitute the country "Germany" with just about any modern, smaller sized, well developed country like "Sweden" or "Norway", etc).

The world's surface area is 196.9 million square miles, Germany's surface area is 137,988 square miles (just using Germany as an example)

Divide 137,988 by 196,900,000 and we get? 0.000700802437786 if I did the math right.

Of course, this is not meant in any way to be a slight on Germany. I have very good, close and long time devoted German friends.

But then I read your posts, I read the posts of a great person who seems to miss the fact that 99.999 percent of the world is not Germany or part of German thinking.

The world is a huge place and vast parts of the planet are socially and economically under developed; and those countries are global polluters and they are not worried about the planet, they just want to feed their families and not starve to death!

This is what many people do not realize. The world is huge and many parts of the planet are socially and economically disadvantaged and therefore most of the world of "have nots" are exploited by the "haves".

It is not realistic, in my view, that the "haves" of the world are going to all of a sudden stop exploiting the "have nots", who are by far the greatest number of people on the planet.

The world is "what is it" based on human nature, not some "altruistic ideal" of human nature which does not exist in the vast majority of the "dog eat dog" parts of the world where people are very poor and economically (and socially) depressed.

It's simply evolution.

The human species on planet Earth, as a whole (not only the "haves") have not evolved to such a state where their individual needs outweigh the needs of the planet; and even the "haves" are so selfish that most of them just want to get richer at the expense of the "have nots".

This is the problem.. It's human nature (not science or "the cool, green trends of today" ) and that the Earth's population at-large is not going to evolve fast enough, in my view, to stop catastrophic climate change.
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# 33  
Old 05-24-2019
Originally Posted by stomp

About that video-thing: A professional Youtuber and his crew made a video on saturday of about 1 hour length. Called "The destruction of the cdu"(cdu = ruling party in germany). 7.000.000 views so far. It really pulls all younger people in and gives a lot of trouble to the party.

Most "professional YouTubers" (or their professional media promotion and PR companies) buy YT views and it's not that expensive or unusual for organizations, governments, or even terrorists or activists to buy millions of YT views these days.

Social media metrics "likes, subscribers, comments" etc are easily sold and bought; and are sold and bought by the millions every minute of every day, for a few dollars.

It's big business. Some "sell likes networks" are global in scale and can "like" your video from all over the world in a matter of seconds.

Careful !
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# 34  
Old 05-24-2019
Hi Neo,

thanks again for your sincere/serious participation.

Originally Posted by Neo
...not realistic...
Well, the task we are confronted with is huge beyond imagination. It regularly knocks me off my feet. What I'm giving is so little, I can not ever hope to move a thing.

But for me this is not about being realistic, it's about having faith and vision. Scott Peck wrote: With a humanist and rational mindset you can make a living and form a great society when times are good. But when you are at the abyss you have to believe that there's some greater force that you participate in, to act even if there seems to be no hope.

It may be only a tv series what I quote now, but one episode touched me deeply: Deep Space Nine. There were some crazy hyperintelligent scientists. Crazy and therefore being locked up to not do any harm. In the episode they solved tremendous tasks but when confronted with the No. 1 enemy of the show the calculated that it is not possible to win. The foe is far too strong. Since Cpt. Cisco is the chosen one - he refused to accept that realistic view. He had faith and did anything he could do and as it is a tv show - it all went good with the support of the prophets.

Does anyone of you really know that it impossible to avoid climate change? Is anyone of you so intelligent that you KNOW that? Are all of you so afraid of failing, so you deny trying? The Incredably able and enourmously competent tech engineers?

That's what I like about Hans-Josef Fell, what inspires me. He has such an immensely strong vision.. He has faith and he's years ahead of me in thinking where the path leads to. What could be done. I saw that once, when I watched him, when I was younger and I see it now as I'm again watching his activities.

It's a mindset shift from the very sad things that are really happening towards what we can achieve.

...the world is lot larger than little germany...
Yes of course it is. I do know little about the world. That's true. Some of what you say is also true.

When I look at the numbers, of top emitters of carbon dioxide are these:

* China
* Europe
* India

USA is a rich country. They can do it. Same goes for Europe. Both can do if the will is there.

China is a huge emitter too. But they are the number one in terms of driving climate protection and renewable energies. It's a political system and an evil "treatment" of people, of mass surveillance, of suppression and of killing people in large numbers they consider as undesired or a threat. That's one of the other real problems, that causes a lot of fear within me. But in terms of the climate goal, they're absolutely in.

India is very big country, with huge number of people and a - so far - relatively low footprint of emission. If the wealth of india with its enourmous population will rise, emissions will rise strongly with them. That's indeed a problem.

What regards the many other regions and countries: Yes, people are dying and starving there. They
already live with the effect of climate change. The escape their homes because they can not live there any more and try to get a living thousands of miles away.

The rich and privileged countries(=we) are called to help, to share technologies, to invest money.(In brazil they're absolutely crazy slashing and burning even more huge amounts of rainforest. They must have a living so they do it. The world could buy that to protect these invaluable resources) It's nothing that can be done at an individual level. It's a matter of the community of all countries of the earth that have to be formed and need to act as one. The rich and privileged countries must lead. We must lead, because we are the ones that have most responsibility in that mess.

The technology is there. If the will is there too, incredible things can be done, like the reversing of the desertification on a global scale to get carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. 100% Renewable Energies is more than just possible.

And about that Germany bubble thing: Fell has lots of hope too. And that's not because looking to germany. If you look only at germany, you may get deeply depressed and need a stronger faith than everywhere else, because of the lack of action in this country. His hope comes from other parts of the world, where the things are really brought forward. One way of thinking about the change is that it costs so much money. Another way Fell introduces is: If you enable the rules for the right things - structures can emerge that help everybody. I can bring some evidences or examples of this if you like.

The video

What's regarding the video: I'm trying to be as attentive as possible to detect such manipulations. In doing so, I'm watching myself and my emotions when I consume something. Where does it lead me? To truth? To aggression towards others(individuals,groups,...)? To energy? To apathy? The person who talks in the video is speaking the truth. He points with the finger into the wound of the climate change problem of inactivity of the goverment. And that's the important part of the thing. What regards manipulation: I hope they get me not too often ;-)


The chinese blockbuster "A wandering earth" may or may not be some sort of propaganda too. But it show's what's needed: A civilization that's working together in the face of extinction. And then things of unimagined scale may happen.

Last edited by stomp; 05-24-2019 at 07:51 AM..
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# 35  
Old 05-24-2019
HI Stomp,

In my view, you may be missing my main counter-argument and point.

You are seeming focused on the technical details of climate change, emissions, GDP, footprints as if the problem is mostly technical in nature, exists without being dependent on other social, political and economic realities on Earth.

Climate change and pollution / emissions is but a symptom (this is my view, not everyone's obviously) of a much larger problem on planet Earth.

So, in my "realist view" worrying and treating "climate change" is like treating a stage 3 or 4 cancer patient by focusing on problems with their skin and hair. Or, for example, treating the skin lesions of a person with full blown AIDs or Ebola. These are symptoms of an underlying disease, not the core underlying illness.

Climate change and pollution, while serious of course, is a symptom of the problems with planet Earth, not the cause of the problem. So, by focusing on the technical aspects of climate change and pollution, likewise, is to focus on treating the symptoms of a disease versus the underlying root cause. Of course, there is nothing wrong with treating symptoms of a disease. Treating symptoms provides us comfort. When we have a cold, we treat the symptoms (fever, headache, cough, etc) until the virus runs its course. There is yet no cure for the common cold. Treating full blown AIDS or cancer patient's symptoms, so they can be more comfortable is a noble thing to do; but it will not stop the cancer or full blown AIDS sufferer from dying from the disease.

The root cause of this "climate change" and "pollution" problem is rooted in how humans have evolved as a species. It's evolutional biology.

First of all, just to start somewhere, there is greed and social-economic problem which are deeply rooted in the world.

The rich and powerful are intoxicated by their wealth and power and influence and most spend their time in the sensual realm. They desire more fame, bigger mansions, more social network followers, and more beauty, etc. Just look around you. You can have a great idea and post some issue on social media about pollution, cybersecurity, climate change on LinkedIn, and few people pay attention However, a young woman posts photos of her sensual face and she can build an entire cult of followers and her "brand". This is self evident.

How crazy is it that human females (for example) must spend big money on makeup and cover every part of their face with chemicals to compete with other female and males in a society? Why do human females need to wear makeup and human males generally do not. Imagine if dogs or cats did that? You would think the dogs and cats were crazy, putting on lipstick, covering their faces with makeup, and then taking selfies and promoting themselves on social media!

Young men and women from economically underdeveloped very poor countries start cultivating their social network (FB, Instagram, etc) at a young age so they can exchange their sensual and sexual "attributes" with "richer" people from developed countries as soon as they are "legal age". This is the fabric of the under developed world. This is a result of the evolutionary path of homo sapiens and the social and economic inequalities that dominate most of the world's population. The vast majority of the people on our planet struggle just to eat from week-to-week!

What I am describing is a human condition which is the underlying social-economic fabric of most of the planet. The homo sapiens' fascination and addiction to wealth, beauty, fame and all sensual things is the underlying cause (actually it is ignorance which drives humans to such nonsense, but that's another story). Dogs and cats do not have this mental / social disease (to my knowledge). But of course, dogs and cats don't live in a world where advertisers and special interest groups are constantly pushing memetic information into their minds. Dogs and cats do not sit around and watch cable TV, YouTube or play on Facebook or Instagram most of their "awakened state".

Then on top of that, dogs and cats do not try to convince each other that their ideas, religious, social, or political views are superior to others. Dogs and cat do not exchange currency and worship money and coin. In fact, no animal on Earth does this but humans; that I am aware of, but I guess if I was an expert on the topic, I might find other species that have some form of currency, like bees and honey or dogs and bones, but I'm not an expert in that area and am getting out over the tips of my skies here.

Climate change, emissions, pollution and the like are only symptoms of the problems with glitches in the process of human evolution.

Yes, there are species of animals and insects who fight wars for control of territory; even dogs and cats fight for territory, but they do not destroy the planet in the process (this I think is a fact). Even tribal warfare between ants often is good for both species and the environment, according to some Discovery Channel videos I saw recently!

Stomp, I complete understand and admire your optimism and hope for the human race in terms of climate change. I also admire everyone who is working, passionate about it, and who is treating this symptom of the underlying disease of homo sapiens. Treating symptoms are normal and good, but it does not solve the underlying disease.

On the flip side, the world is focused on "populism" because people of one social-economic class feel very unhappy with people of another social-economic class. Brexit, Trumpism, etc etc. Racism, nationalism and hate are on the rise globally. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. There are various forms of warfare and terrorism going on 24 hours a day because of ideological difference between humans. People kill other and hate each other based on differences in ideas! Imagine that!

The problem, in my view, is that humans have not evolved quickly enough to have the mental and emotional maturity as a species to stop hating, to stop killing, and to stop being addicted to sensual pleasures (money, power, ideas, sex). As long as human kind is addicted to sensual and material pleasures (which includes ideas , memetics and mental formations, not just external material sensuality) they will be greedy, self-serving and self-destructive. As long as humans are greedy and self-serving they will put themselves above the need of the planet as a whole. As long as the rich and famous are mostly interested in getting more richer and more famous, and the poor are left to their own sad fate, the world will continue to plunge deeper into this human-created darkness the less fortunate live in every day.

This is one big reason many "smart people" believe that as a species humans are past the tipping point regarding climate change.

The underlying solution is not "counting emissions and CO2". That is just a symptom of the underlying problem - that human kind has harnessed machines and information in way which the evolution of the human mind, as a whole, is not ready for. They have harvested the power of machines and information primarily for sensual gain. It's like giving a 2 year old a loaded gun, if you get my meaning. The ways humans think, as a species (not as all individuals) is toward the self and not the planet.

What I am describing is result of the cause and effect (causality) of how humans have evolved from simple life forms to mammals (monkeys and apes) and then to homo sapiens. The human mind, and indeed the entire realm of human social consciousness is a result of evolutional biology and the probability is that homo sapiens will continue along this materialist, addicted to sensuality, self-centric path. I do not claim I am anything but human myself and know how addictive fame, fortune and sensual pleasures can be; and I have also been "stung" by this "bee". It's human nature!

In closing (sorry for such a rant), if aliens from an advanced civilization were looking at Planet Earth from afar and were inclined to wagering (gambling); placing a bet that homo sapiens will evolve fast enough to solve the underlying problems from the process of human evolutionary biology before homo sapiens destroy the Earth's natural resources, is a low probability bet. If course it is possible that humans will rise above this state of addiction to all thing sensual and material, and many humans (as individuals) have.

But sadly, the species of homo sapiens as a whole, and their self-focus on sensuality and materialism are really quite primitive, don't you think?

See also: Wikipedia - Human: Transition to modernity

Until about 12,000 years ago (the beginning of the Holocene), all humans lived as hunter-gatherers, generally in small nomadic groups known as band societies, often in caves.

The Neolithic Revolution (the invention of agriculture) took place beginning about 10,000 years ago, first in the Fertile Crescent, spreading through large parts of the Old World over the following millennia, and independently in Mesoamerica about 6,000 years ago. Access to food surplus led to the formation of permanent human settlements, the domestication of animals and the use of metal tools for the first time in history.

Agriculture and sedentary lifestyle led to the emergence of early civilizations (the development of urban developent, complex society, social stratification and writing) from about 5,000 years ago (the Bronze Age), first beginning in Mesopotamia.[61]

Few human populations progressed to historicity, with substantial parts of the world remaining in a Neolithic, Mesolithic or Upper Paleolithic stage of development until the advent of globalisation and modernity initiated by European exploration and colonialism.

The Scientific Revolution, Technological Revolution and the Industrial Revolution brought such discoveries as imaging technology, major innovations in transport, such as the airplane and automobile; energy development, such as coal and electricity.[62] This correlates with population growth (especially in America)[63] and higher life expectancy, the World population rapidly increased numerous times in the 19th and 20th centuries as nearly 10% of the 100 billion people lived in the past century.[64]

With the advent of the Information Age at the end of the 20th century, modern humans live in a world that has become increasingly globalized and interconnected. As of 2010, almost 2 billion humans are able to communicate with each other via the Internet,[65] and 3.3 billion by mobile phone subscriptions.[66] Although connection between humans has encouraged the growth of science, art, discussion, and technology, it has also led to culture clashes and the development and use of weapons of mass destruction.[citation needed] Human civilization has led to environmental destruction and pollution significantly contributing to the ongoing mass extinction of other forms of life called the Holocene extinction event,[67] which may be further accelerated by global warming in the future.[68]
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