Visit Our UNIX and Linux User Community


Popularity-Boost for the POSIX-Shell in the Era of Containerized Computing?


 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
The Lounge What is on Your Mind? Popularity-Boost for the POSIX-Shell in the Era of Containerized Computing?
# 1  
Old 01-04-2019
Popularity-Boost for the POSIX-Shell in the Era of Containerized Computing?

Not even thinking that POSIX-Shell is deprecated, but I like working with bash very much, because of it's increased comfort and advanced functions. And in my world here it's available everywhere as default.

Working with kubernetes now, it seems there is a paradigm shift in terms of resources. Small is beautiful is one old and new slogan here. Faster to backup, Faster to set up, Less I/O. A popular linux distribution for containers is alpine linux: Default Installed Image size: ~5 MB. Based on busybox and musl.

With kubernetes(or with other container technology) you can use resources far more effectively and that's why small resource footprint gains you really much in terms of how many applications can I run on the cluster?

Want to install bash? Nearly Triples space usage of that whole system. So size really matters...

Debian/Ubuntu docker base images are at 80-120 MB with my final app images(small apps) around 200-400 MB.
# 2  
Old 01-04-2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomp
I like working with bash very much, because of it's increased comfort and advanced functions.
Hmm, i came to dislike bash and prefer ksh very much for the same reasons. Perhaps that is personal taste? Also, my impression is that most users of bash do not prefer it for some technical reasons at all but simply because the can use cursor-keys for command editing. I set my ksh to vi-mode and detest the cursor-keys because they make me move my fingers from the standard positions on the keyboard (yes, i am a touch-typist) away. vi-mode (but again: perhaps personal taste) is IMHO so much faster than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stomp
Small is beautiful is one old and new slogan here.
This IMHO was the defining property of the UNIX development: do only one thing and do it right. Don't try to do many things at the same time. Actually this is a tenet which got us (the collective "us" of all Unix users) as far as we are - the number one OS in the world. Alas, i see it very often violated gravely in modern UNIXes and in Linux especially. Most of these guys gre up with Mickeysoft products and now they try to reinvent its tools for the UNIX world. You want a tool? You get a GUI! I don't want a GUI which i cannot script and use to build my own tools from building blocks - but is there anything else? So, great, once i put something in cron, now everything is much easier - just wake up every hour and click somewhere. Ah, so we need to incorporate a brand new scheduler for this into the tool - and a private scripting language along with it so that you can automate.... STOP! I have all that! It is called the "shell". And i don't want to learn a new language just to use the SuperFlurbisher v3.14. Apart from the added footprint caused by reinventing the wheel anew for every car you produce also the possible bugs in this huge amount of software is multiplied. 1 Parser ~= x bugs ; 15 parsers ~= ? 1 scheduler (cron) ~= y bugs ; all the schedulers in the various foo- and bar-tools ~= how many?

Just for instance: use a WIFI adapter in a notebook running Linux. The commandline tools are really horrible (really - i have tried and failed and although i am no Linux expert i know a thing or two about scripting), so the only thing left to use it sensibly is NetworkManager. Fine, but: you cannot run it under X11. You can use all sorts of fancy desktops which you may or may not like, but not X11 and a window manager like mwm. So, de facto the driver layer of the OS has been transferred to the presentation layer. Isn't that what (among other things) got Micro$ofts OS in trouble in the first place? Poor performance was the reason they poked holes (and in effect lobotomised) the VMS-like NT v3.51-kernel Dave Cutler built for them in NT v4.0 and ownards - with the well known side-effect that now a badly written graphics driver can send your vital server to electronic Neverland.

Every beginner in software development is tought some tenets of the trade: isolate as much as possible. Whenever you write a piece of code make as few assumptions about your surroundings as possible. Create consistent interfaces between parts of your code. And so on, you probably learned these things as well as i did. And all these tenets are violated over and over again on the "outside" of the programs written. They make for a heavily dependent, interconnected environment. Try to deinstall the "Adwaita" icon theme from a modern Ubuntu - the package manager will leave you with a practically empty disk after deinstalling almost everything. I understand how that comes, but: do i want to use an OS which depends on some icons being installed, for chrissakes?

I could go on, but you probably got my drift. I work on AIX systems for almost 25 years now and i use Linux as a desktop OS for my laptops and desktops for ~15 years now. Yes, using Windoze would be even more dissatisfying but i am far from happy with the current state of affairs. Linux once promised a new way. It degenerated IMHO to the lesser of two evils.

bakunin
These 3 Users Gave Thanks to bakunin For This Post:

Previous Thread | Next Thread

9 More Discussions You Might Find Interesting

1. OS X (Apple)

Generate a random number in a fully POSIX compliant shell, 'dash'...

Hi all... Apologies for any typos, etc... This took a while but it didn't beat me... Although there are many methods of generating random numbers in a POSIX shell this uses integer maths and a simple C source to create an executable to get epoch to microseconds accuracy if it is needed. I take... (8 Replies)
Discussion started by: wisecracker
8 Replies

2. Shell Programming and Scripting

Q: Is SQRT(n) possible in a POSIX compliant shell? A: Yes within limits.

Hi all... This is just a fun project to see if it is possible to get a square root of a positive integer from 1 to 9200000 to 6 decimal places on a 64 bit architecture machine. It is coded around dash and the results show the values from 0 to 10000. Complex numbers can easily be catered for by... (3 Replies)
Discussion started by: wisecracker
3 Replies

3. Shell Programming and Scripting

Equivalent to let command in POSIX shell

Hi all, I am learning POSIX shell programming, and the book I read, uses the let command for integer arithmetic. I have downloaded and use the shellcheck program on Linux. This programs says: In POSIX sh, 'let' is undefined. See the screenshot attached. What is the POSIX... (1 Reply)
Discussion started by: johnprogrammer
1 Replies

4. Shell Programming and Scripting

Pure POSIX shell scripting...

Hi all... This is more of a concensus question than help... As many of you know I am experimenting with the limitations of Pure POSIX shell scripting. Q: Is the directory /bin considered part of the Pure POSIX shell or must I stick entirely with the builtins only? The reason is I... (2 Replies)
Discussion started by: wisecracker
2 Replies

5. Shell Programming and Scripting

Is Rule 7 of POSIX shell grammar rules written correctly?

The POSIX shell standard grammar rules are at Shell Command Language I am trying to understand Rule 7 and I don't. I think there may be some mistakes there. I am not complaining about the standard; rather, I am concerned that my perception is wrong, and I don't understand something important.... (3 Replies)
Discussion started by: Mark_Galeck
3 Replies

6. Shell Programming and Scripting

Logical expression in POSIX compliant Korn Shell

Hi, i want to check if a variable var1 is not a or b or c pseudo code: If NOT (var1 = a or var1 = b or var1 = c) then ... fi I want to use POSIX complaint Korn shell, and for string comparison For the following code, logical.sh #!/usr/bin/ksh var="j" echo "Var : $var" if ! { || ||... (12 Replies)
Discussion started by: ysrini
12 Replies

7. Solaris

boost thread not accessible to boost::move error

Hi All I am working unders Sun Solaris and I am not "/opt/boost/boost/thread/detail/thread.hpp", line 344: Error: boost::thread::thread(boost::thread&) is not accessible from boost::move(boost::detail::thread_move_t<boost::thread>). Do you know if there are other solutions other than... (2 Replies)
Discussion started by: manustone
2 Replies

8. Solaris

SunOS Popularity

Hey guys 3rd thred!!! :b: Anyways. I was looking into SunOS (Solaris/OpenSolaris) And i couldnt find anything about its popularity? Does this mean its not a very popular operating system? If not can you please post the link to your source. Thx -Megadrink :cool: (15 Replies)
Discussion started by: Megadrink
15 Replies

9. Virtualization and Cloud Computing

Event Cloud Computing - IBM Turning Data Centers Into ?Computing Cloud?

Tim Bass Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:55:07 +0000 *I predict we may experience less*debates*on the use of the term “event cloud”*related to*CEP in the future, now that both IBM and Google* have made announcements about “cloud computing” and “computing cloud”, IBM Turning Data Centers Into ‘Computing... (0 Replies)
Discussion started by: Linux Bot
0 Replies

Featured Tech Videos